HT vs Q - Round 1 goes to the HT

[Desert_Seg]

I got some great news today.

We have sold some Segways to a mall here and are helping launch some stores there with some branded units. In the mall is a store selling the Q.

Today one of the mall management stopped me (he on a Segway) and told me that they had seen the store staff riding the Q around the mall twice and stopped them both times. When the store complained that the Segways were allowed and their machine wasn't they were told that the Segway was safe and their unit wasn't.

Best of all, they were told that the next time they were caught riding in the mall they would be fined!


A glide a day keeps the Doctor away.

[Tarkus]

As great as that sounds on the surface, that is the same line of thought used by many to ban Segs.

Who decides whats safe. If the Seg can glide then to "Q" can do whatever it is that it does.

[GyroGo]

quote:
Who decides whats safe. If the Seg can glide then to "Q" can do whatever it is that it does.

Well, the respective governmental entities could take the lead in passing "EPAMD-like" legislation that could help define guidelines or expectations enacted on private property as well. For example, a mall could allow all electripeds outdoors, but only "EPAMD qualified" devices indoors.

Gary

[Tarkus]

Ok, I understand the passing of law.

My point was that somebody without any hard facts bans the "Q" because they have decided that it's a danger. Same problem the HT has on private property.

This is not a race. As Segway owners we should be happy to see ANY BRAND EPAMD on the streets. That will go along way as far as the random bans qoes.

Don't bother with the "Segway is the only safe EPAMD & poor copies will only hurt the cause" stuff, unless your a dealer than I can understand your position.

Yes the HT is the cream of the crop, but I still don't like the random ban of the "Q" for no proven danger.

[SegwayUtah]

Tarkus: the Segway HT is the _only_ EPAMD in existence. I don't think that anyone should ban an EPAMD unless there is a real (and not imagined) safety issue, even when other brands come to market.

As far as motorized scooters (i.e. non balancing, motorized skateboards) like the Q go, I don't really have too many opinions there. If they pose a real safety issue, then reasonable (and appropriate) steps should be taken.

Chris

[woodenapple]

I agree with Chris. The Q and other cheap segway imitators do not meet the legal definition of EPAMDs in any of the state laws that I remember reading. The special characteristics that make the segway different from all those imitators are the very things that make it safe. Those characteristics are the reason so many state legislatures created a new category for EPAMDs.

The Q and it's like, still fall under the same legal restrictions as other scooters, skateboards, etc. And because of the shared operating characteristics, they also share the "unsafe among pedestrians" characteristic.

I realize I am oversimplifying this by lumping Qs, scooters, skateboards, etc. all together. But the main point is that the segway is the only thing out there with the quantum leap of difference which earned it the EPAMD classification and the access allowances that go with that.

Rodney

May all your days be Segway days!

[cmonkey]

Hi Tarkus, I can agree with you to some extent, but I've been on a Q, and I'd have to agree with the mall. Please consider that the seg has some legal standing as an EMAPD, and it's design is geared toward pedestrian parameterss, whereas the Q is a knock off and not as capable as a seg.

I have some thoughts on the Q... vs the segway.
(If I were in a Q banning mood, which I am, let's face it, I'm biased).

The Q has that single brake on only one rear wheel. If someone were to brake hard and tip the slightest bit forward.... wouldn't that leave a nasty skid mark on the floor? (I don't think those rear wheels are of the non marring type)
The seg has the advantage of 0-radius turning, the Q doesn't, which means the rider would have to do the forward/reverse thing to clear tight obstacles. Let's face it, that's not really safe in a crowded pedestrian environment. If your a pedestrian in a mall, following a seg, you don't expect the seg to back up to make a tight turn. On a Q with those sharp edges.... can you imagine stopping and accidentally backing over someone's foot? That brake assembly looks like it could do some damage. Hopefully, the mall didn't just ban the Q out of spite as I would have if it was my mall. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they did consider all the angles, although they may not have been posted here. All we're privy to is the end result.

I can understand the shop owner's position too... They're selling a knock off and want equal time, but, unfortunatley, it's for an unequal product.

In looking at the letter of the law (at least here in CA), the law applies to 'two wheeled, non-tandem, self-balancing...' The Q is none of these things, and therefore not privilige to the same considerations.

I would love to see more EPAMDs on the streets... and anywhere else for that matter, but on private property I'd hope that owners make educated decisions on what is or is not acceptable.


Off to pep boys to thumb my nose at the sellers of Q.
The Q definitely has it's place. I just don't know where that'd be ;)


David S
I wish I were "Q", omnipotence would be so much fun....

[SegwayUtah]

David: the Q does leave marks easily. I had the, ahem, honor of riding one and seeing one ridden at a SegwayFest, and I believe someone left marks on the carpet(!) just trying not to fall off at a slow speed.

Chris

[cmonkey]

Skid marks bad, and having brakes on only one wheel means better braking when turning in one direction vs the other! That just doesn't sound safe to me.

David

I love my magic carpet!

[Tarkus]

Thanks, I thought the "q" fell under EMAPD laws. That then is a different matter.

I too have been on a "Q" and it is what it is. You get what you pay for. That being said I still don't like things being banned for "perceived" reason.

Of course in this case it falls into a class of device that is already a no-no.

The day will come when another product will meet the EMAPD class and it will be a "knock off", we will call it cheap junk because we are loyal to a cause.

But I for one welcome more EMAPD's on the streets as it will help advance it's purpose and our cause.

You can't compare an BMW to a Kia but they are both autos. Thats just the way it is, an azz for every seat.

[Desert_Seg]

Tarkus et al,

Mall management, local police, and many other parties have tested the Q and some had even bought units. All whom I have met were told by the Q dealer that it was a Segway and all were shocked when I showed up with the real thing.

Q has been here for about two years so it does have much more acceptance. We are working to overcome that.

However, I don't agree with your premise that the more EMAPD devices out there the better off we are. IF the EMAPD's are built to similar or close safety standards as the HT, if they are build of quality (even a Kia has value for money), then, yes, they are a good thing. If they are not, they are hurting our cause.

The Q is hurting our cause and should be classified for what, in my mind and that of many, it is....a toy.

Steven

A glide a day keeps the Doctor away.

[Sal]

Steven, I would have loved to see the look on the faces of those poor folks who were taken by the Q dealer. If indeed the dealer sold the toys as Segways, there needs to be repercussions for deception.

I also agree that more [EPAMDs] is not necessarily better. The “right” EPAMDs the better.

-Sal

___________
I considered atheism, but there were too few holidays

Segway Chat Member since July 2003
Segway Owner since August 2003

[Tarkus]

quote:Originally posted by Desert_Seg

Tarkus et al,

Mall management, local police, and many other parties have tested the Q and some had even bought units. All whom I have met were told by the Q dealer that it was a Segway and all were shocked when I showed up with the real thing.

Q has been here for about two years so it does have much more acceptance. We are working to overcome that.
However, I don't agree with your premise that the more EMAPD devices out there the better off we are. IF the EMAPD's are built to similar or close safety standards as the HT, if they are build of quality (even a Kia has value for money), then, yes, they are a good thing. If they are not, they are hurting our cause.

The Q is hurting our cause and should be classified for what, in my mind and that of many, it is....a toy.

Steven

A glide a day keeps the Doctor away.


I had no idea the "Q" had a market anywhere,you should have little problem once people try the Segway.

[Desert_Seg]

Tarkus,

From what I've been able to decipher, the Q dealer was selling between 4 and 8 a week at each store, some of them for export by folks who live elsewhere (Dubai is a huge re-export country).

When talking to the salesmen (I give them rides on the real thing and they spill their guts), they are still selling 2 to 4 a week, they agree with clients if a client says "Segway?", and they would rather have the HT than the Q.

Once people try the HT the only issue is price. I had a meeting with a very prominent local businesswoman who has a Q, would rather have the HT, but has issues with the price.

We keep working it, and I'm not scared of the Q and the business it might steal.

Steven

A glide a day keeps the Doctor away.

[Sal]

In case anyone hadn't seen it, refer to my post at toward the latter portion of the following thread:

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12381

I have two links to BruceWright's excellent review of the Q way back when.

Cheers!

-Sal



___________
I considered atheism, but there were too few holidays

Segway Chat Member since July 2003
Segway Owner since August 2003

[wwhopper]

I think it is time that a SEG offers the Q an opportunity to prove itself. SEG Polo vs Q polo!

We saw a Q on the streets of DC the other day - it was not a pretty sight!

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
SEG America
The Premier Gliding Organization!
http://www.SEGAmerica.org
Washington DC - The Most Segway Friendly City in America!

[SegwayUtah]

quote:Originally posted by wwhopper

I think it is time that a SEG offers the Q an opportunity to prove itself. SEG Polo vs Q polo!

Will, if I remember right, the Q won't even work on grass. Some of the children's "power wheels" type vehicles are built better, and are more functional.

Comparing a Q to an EPAMD like the Segway is giving it _way_ too much credit. The school project balancers are way more impressive than that motorized scooter Segway lookalike will ever be.

Although it will fool a lot of people.

Chris

[wwhopper]

All the better for the SEG Polo Players - Round One Goes to the SEGWAY!

But I bet that users will think they have the same rights that Segway HT users have when it comes to streets and sidewalks...

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
SEG America
The Premier Gliding Organization!
http://www.SEGAmerica.org
Washington DC - The Most Segway Friendly City in America!

[Desert_Seg]

Will,

You don't know how right you are. The Q users feel they can and should be able to go anywhere we go. Worse yet, because it is less threatening in looks (smaller tires, not as beefy) as an i series, it is often let in places that we might not be allowed to go.

This isnt' necessarily malls but I've seen it allowed in grocery stores where I've not been allowed....I then, of course, press the issue and either get them tossed or us allowed!

Steven

A glide a day keeps the Doctor away.

[KSagal]

quote:Originally posted by Tarkus

Thanks, I thought the "q" fell under EMAPD laws. That then is a different matter.

...


The day will come when another product will meet the EMAPD class and it will be a "knock off", we will call it cheap junk because we are loyal to a cause.

But I for one welcome more EMAPD's on the streets as it will help advance it's purpose and our cause.

You can't compare an BMW to a Kia but they are both autos. Thats just the way it is, an azz for every seat.


I for one, really like my segway. That does not mean that I would be unfair to someone with an alternate idea. I like big dogs but that does not mean that I have a problem with people that like little dogs. This also recognizes that dog people may not appreciate people that call their snake a pet on a par with the dog...

The comment about comparing cars I do not agree with. A Kia can surely be compared to a BMW. Both travel the same roads, both have the same laws that govern them, both are rated by the safety agencies and the insurance companies for their safety. While I agree that a BMW has clear advantages in performance and luxury, it can be argued that for pure transportation value, the Kia is a better buy.

Now, as far as my simple opinion of the Q. I have also ridden one. I agree that there are substantial differences. Because of the difference in the balance, motor control, and braking, I believe that the Q is far less safe in any situation that I can conceive of. I was going to say that this has nothing to do with my love for the segway, but it does. The fact that the segway is clearly a completely different device is a major factor in my appreciation of it. I can make a Q. I cannot make a segway. It is that simple...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.