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pdantic
02-02-2003, 07:23 PM
Warning: This is a long post! [/:)] (Frank, if you'd like to just have a link to this, I've put it at http://www.pdantic.com/reviews/segpricing.htm as well)

The other day there was a thread on SegwayChat talking about the high price of the HT right now ($4,950) and how people were aghast at the price when they heard about it. I started thinking about life cycle pricing while I was taking a walk at lunch one day, and it occurred to me that if the pricing of the Segway HT follows other technological innovations we can probably expect to see the price drop to about $250 or less within five to ten years!

I don’t pretend to be an economist; I’m an engineer by training, have an MBA, and I currently work as an I/T Project Manager. But life cycle pricing is rather simple to understand if you look at it in terms of another tech device that is currently becoming a commodity – a DVD player.

When DVD players first hit the market, there were a lot of people who said they’d never make an impact on sales of VCRs. After all, when you could go down to Wal-Mart and pick up a VHS VCR that could both record AND play for less than $100, why would anybody in their right mind spend $1000 or more on a DVD player?

That was the price of one of the first DVD players I looked at. I waited for the price to drop to about $750 before I bought it. You can now pick up a DVD player with much better functionality at Wal-Mart for $75!

The initial market for DVD players was like the Segway HT market is right now – made up of people who are early innovators and who like to have the latest & greatest thing. During the introduction of a new technology, the early innovators serve a wonderful function. They provide a way for the developer of the new hardware to start paying off R&D costs, they usually help develop the market by spreading the word about the benefits of the new technology to the rest of the world, and their feedback can provide valuable input about what functions are good or bad with the new product.

You can definitely see this in the Segway HT world at this point – pt, Frank and the rest of the lucky winners spent $4,950 a pop for their Segways, but they’re helping to get the word out to the rest of us about how cool the HT really is. My guess is that the rumored $100 million development cost for the Segway technology is about right, but that a lot of that cost was probably swallowed by investors who expect to make their big bucks down the road and also by risk-sharing partners who will make their money by supplying parts for the Segway HT and its progeny.

In other words, the folks who make the batteries, electronic components, sensors, and even the tires probably spent their own money developing those parts for the Segway HT at little or no cost to Segway, hoping that the future sales of the HT would more than make back their investment. For example, Michelin realizes that Segway HT tires are a consumable that will need to be replaced every 5,000 miles or so. They put in a couple of million dollars into developing a tire that meets Segway’s specifications and then reap the benefits once there are a few hundred thousand (or several million!) people all in need of replacement tires in a few years.

The other suppliers of development money for the Segway HT were the investors, including Dean Kamen himself and others like Steve Wozniak, Jeff Bezos, etc… You can bet that these folks are probably hoping for widespread adoption of Segway technology, as they stand to make some big dollars down the road!

OK, so if we assume that a lot of the initial R&D cost of the Segway HT was “picked up” by investors and risk-sharing partners, why are the I series Segways selling for $4,950? At this point in time, there are other costs that need to be covered; the factory, the employees who are building, selling, and providing training for the Segway, etc... In addition, the components that make up the Segway HT aren’t cheap right now. Those risk-sharing partners may have developed the components at their cost, but they still have to manufacture those pieces and cover the cost of making them. With only a few thousand Segway HTs in the world at this point, the cost of components is as high as it will ever be.

Now, let’s fast forward to six months from now. All of the units sold through Amazon to be shipped in the March – July, 2003 timeframe have been shipped, and hopefully there are quite a few buyers. Segway announces the p series device at a lower price (let’s say $2,950) and lowers the price on the i series slightly to $4,495. By this time, all of the early adopters have had anywhere from a month to 7 months to enjoy their ride, they’ve thrilled many of their friends who are all now anxious to buy an HT, and sales start creeping up. Most of the manufacturers have probably paid off a good portion of their initial R&D costs and their production volume has risen, so their cost per unit drops. Most likely they’ve all signed some sort of supply contract with Segway that will force them to sell components to Segway at lower costs as time goes by, so Segway is able to produce the HT at even less cost.

During this entire time, the supply of Segways is increasing. Kinks are worked out of the manufacturing process, it takes less time to produce an HT than it originally did, and they’re starting to flow out of the factory very quickly. Labor costs and fixed costs are spread over a larger volume of product, so the cost per unit falls.

After the first year or so, provided there aren’t a lot of idiots in city offices writing laws to ban Segways from city sidewalks, sales continue to climb. Other companies, now seeing that the Segway HT is not just a flash in the pan, decide to join the market. Dean Kamen licenses the technology to a few other companies or someone else develops their own similar technology without infringing on the Segway patents. With competition starting to hit the market, there is a bit more supply than demand, so prices drop even more until the market soaks up that extra supply. Perhaps one of the licensees figures out a way to extend range with the same batteries, or uses a hydrogen-fueled Stirling engine for extra range. Someone comes out with an off-road “Sport Utility HT” that is specially made for riding on rough trails, another comes out with an HT that has a collapsible canopy for rainy/snowy weather. Through competition and further innovation, the market continues to expand and diversify, and costs decrease even more.

In a perfect world, this trend would continue until you get to the point that the Segway HT becomes a commodity product. This is the case where you’re able to go over to Target and pick one up off the shelf for $250 or less, and just about anybody who wants one can buy one.

This has happened time and time again in the consumer electronics world. I recall spending just over $3,000 for my first 512KB “Fat Mac” and a dot-matrix printer in late 1984; now you can purchase a 3.06 GHz PC with Windows XP, a 17” flat panel LCD screen, a 120GB hard disk drive, 1 GB of RAM, and a combo inkjet printer/scanner/fax machine for just over $2,000. The first VHS VCR I bought cost me about $1,500, you can get ‘em for less than $50 now. I bought a four-function calculator in 1973 that cost $200 and used up a set of AA batteries every two hours or so; you can now buy a solar-powered scientific calculator for less than $10. My first PDA (an Apple Newton MessagePad I purchased in August of 1993) had a 20 MHz CPU, a monochrome screen and less than a meg of RAM; for about the same price you can now get a Pocket PC with a 400 MHz CPU, a full-color screen, and 64MB of RAM.

We can only hope that the Segway HT catches on the way that many of these consumer products did, and that in another couple of years we’re all gliding around and watching our cars collect dust…


Steve
www.pdantic.com

Automobiles:
"They contained the seeds of their own destruction. Eighty million steel juggernauts, operated by imperfect human beings at high speeds, are more destructive than war."
-- Robert Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll"




hubbahbubbah
02-02-2003, 08:22 PM
I think that's interesting, but the question is how 'compressible' the Segway's cost is.

A DVD player's raw materials, cost of manufacture and distribution are not very high -- and probably weren't very high for the first one, either. I guess the question is, how do these cost break down the Segway.

Brooster
02-02-2003, 08:23 PM
That's a well-considered post, Steve, and I'd certainly love it if you turned out to be right, but I think $250 is perhaps more than a bit over-optimistic. I think there will be certain limiting factors, such as the cost of batteries, tires, and the sheer volume of raw materials involved. There will certainly be economies of scale that come into play, but after a point, the prices of certain components simply can't fall any lower. And the labor costs involved in producing a Segway HT alone ... will almost certainly never drop below $250.

A DVD player, while it's a good example, only weighs a few pounds. An i167 weighs 83! I could see $2,500 someday, but not $250.

Brooster

pdantic
02-02-2003, 11:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by Brooster

That's a well-considered post, Steve, and I'd certainly love it if you turned out to be right, but I think $250 is perhaps more than a bit over-optimistic. I think there will be certain limiting factors, such as the cost of batteries, tires, and the sheer volume of raw materials involved. There will certainly be economies of scale that come into play, but after a point, the prices of certain components simply can't fall any lower.


Brooster - yeah, I tend to be a bit of an incurable optimist when it comes to technology! But I think I'll go on record as predicting a $2500 Segway before June 30, 2004... :D If I'm wrong, all I have lost is my pride! ;)

I agree that batteries will remain a huge barrier to reducing cost. However, energy storage technology has been advancing for the last 20 years or another powerplant (i.e., fuel cell, Mr. Fusion(tm), microturbines in the 3kw range) might provide the needed power at a much lower cost than batteries.

As for the electronics, we know from the last 30 years of history that the prices will go down. The other expensive components include the sensor packages. I don't know if Segway is currently using MEMS (micro-electronic-mechanical-systems) Technology in the sensor packages, but if they aren't they probably will and that will reduce costs even more. If they already are using MEMS, then the cost will drop as soon as volume production begins.

Labor costs can be cut by a) moving manufacturing overseas, b) using robots to do assembly and packing, or c) reducing component counts and therefore assembly steps.

Any other predictions on pricing? I'd love to hear 'em.

Steve
www.pdantic.com

Automobiles:
"They contained the seeds of their own destruction. Eighty million steel juggernauts, operated by imperfect human beings at high speeds, are more destructive than war."
-- Robert Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll"

JosephM
02-02-2003, 11:05 PM
The Segway will come down in price. The technolog will go up, but there will be room in our hearts for the i167's of the world when they come down to around $1000.

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/icon_segway_happy.gif FIRST Pit News Mag @ www.pitnews.org

BruceWright
02-02-2003, 11:19 PM
Certain costs remain fixed and aren't changed by moore's law. Shipping of materials, for example. Also remember that there is competition among dvd manufacturers. Segway currently has a monopoly on the technology, and will for about 12 more years.

What was the model T's price when Henry Ford started them? About $850. Eventually Ford got them down to $250 each (about $2500 adjusted for inflation), but after that, they never got cheaper!

Moore's law applies only to transistors, not to materials that aren't getting any cheaper, not to transportation, not to energy and not to labor.

I think we will see a decrease in costs along the lines of Mr. Ford's Tin Lizzy. So maybe down to a quarter of the price.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

Detrbear
02-02-2003, 11:21 PM
I remember the first VCR's, they were built like tanks, and were worth repairing. The new ones have much cheaper components and are designed to be thrown away when they malfunction. If one malfunctions, short of starting a fire, not much of any consequence will happen. If a Segway malfunctions, it may create mortal danger for the rider. Yes, the price is bound to come down, but when human safety is involved, there is a limit.

The Segways we are anxiously waiting for now are built like tanks. That is part of the excitement. We may be about to get the best-built longest-lasting Segways that will ever be made, before they start making them cheaper to be able to sell them cheaper.

Bill

Brooster
02-02-2003, 11:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Detrbear

I remember the first VCR's, they were built like tanks, and were worth repairing. The new ones have much cheaper components and are designed to be thrown away when they malfunction. If one malfunctions, short of starting a fire, not much of any consequence will happen. If a Segway malfunctions, it may create mortal danger for the rider. Yes, the price is bound to come down, but when human safety is involved, there is a limit.

The Segways we are anxiously waiting for now are built like tanks. That is part of the excitement. We may be about to get the best-built longest-lasting Segways that will ever be made, before they start making them cheaper to be able to sell them cheaper.



Bill, this is just my own opinion ...

Yes, the i167 is "built like a tank." It's a solid, heavy-duty piece of equipment. I don't think we'll ever see any substantive change in Segway's overall quality, even if it means keeping the price a bit higher than most people would like to see it. Making things chintzy just isn't Dean's way of doing business.

Brooster

emanresu
02-03-2003, 10:13 AM
Yeah, I tried to ride my VCR home from the Blockbuster the other day, but it kept on dropping knobs and taking me back to the store. (Be Kind- Rewind!)

GlideMaster
02-03-2003, 10:25 AM
Ten years from now the Segway i167 will not be anything like it is today it's current nomenclature will probably have changed. You won't have to worry about a $250.00 glider. It will probably be a true glider and levitate by some means of magnetic propulsion. So you can forget about the $250.00.

<center>The GlideMaster</center>

JosephM
02-03-2003, 06:43 PM
I still think the Segway price will be slashed as the process is refined and the materials and moores law takes effect. That means less compartment space, less plastic, more room for batteries, and such.

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/icon_segway_happy.gif FIRST Pit News Mag @ www.pitnews.org

god1138
02-05-2003, 02:13 AM
The thing I really considered is more in the form of a hypothetcial statement divided into two thoughts with respect to history.

The first thought is the question "If you could go back in time and buy the first telephone from Alexander Graham Bell himself, would you do it?" Naturally, my answer is "yes" because in that situation I would want to be one of the first - ahead of the technology curve.

The second thought is this: Remember Tucker cars? Full of safety innovations, wonderfully designed by a man with a great vision... and shut down by the big three automotive companies. Now because Segway has gained such massive poularity and press, I doubt anyone's going to try to shut Dean Kamen's operation down, but when a revolutionary product comes along, sometimes the public buys it and sometimes it flops. The Segway is so revolutionary that some people won't like it despite anything you could possibly say or do. I don't want to worry whether or not it will get cheaper over time (certainly, it will probably come down in price but at what sacrifice? Features, perhaps?), but I'd rather get my shot at a Segway and having one forever to call my own instead of worrying about things like "if I pass it up now, I may never get a chance at it again." I'm just going to do it and damn the torpedoes if the price drops. It's just money, and while I don't have a whole lot, I believe in the science behind Segway, the man behind Segway, and the idea that something no one ever thought would be possible (a single axle vehicle) really is.

I believe in this product with all my heart and I can't wait to get my own. I'm putting my deposit down in less than a week and then it's off to the races!



My other car is a Segway!

BruceWright
02-05-2003, 02:37 AM
The problem with having the first telephone, god1138,

Who do you call?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

god1138
02-05-2003, 01:33 PM
Hey Bruce...
I guess I should have been more specific... I meant the first telephone as in the first MODEL - not number one as in the VERY first one. And in proper context, what I was really trying to get across is that the telephone was something revolutionary and now none of us would probably be able to function without it. I don't know if that will be the case with Segway, but it's very obvious that Dean Kamen has invented something that could have a significant societal impact.

My other car is a Segway!

Deviant
02-05-2003, 01:46 PM
One can get video phones today, and should expect that they will be very popular in the future. However, given the current commodity offerings, I would not get them - too slow.

I'm sure when the first telephones came out, many said "Why would I want to just listen to that poor sound, when I can listen to my friends' beautiful voices, see them, and shake their hands?"

New technology will rarely completely replace what we are used to, but if it does at least one thing much better than we had without forcing us to give up what we had, we find a place for it. The Segway cannot replace walking nor driving a car, but it can compete where those two are lacking. The question is if it's advantages outweigh its costs (money, time, storage, maintenance, etc.). We know now that it will for some and not others. We just don't know how many today, and how many tomorrow.

-Deviant
Segway HT owner & rider

Sailor
02-05-2003, 05:22 PM
I don't know about this theory. If I owned Segway LLC (and believe me, we are all better off that I don't) I would continue to sell Segways at whatever price people were willing to pay. For example, it is possible to manufacture and sell cars now for way under 10G, yet nobody does that because people are willing to pay 15G to 50G's for cars. Hence car manufacturers continue to build new and different models of cars that require the price to absorb the research and development costs instead of creating a boring model that they can focus on manufacturing for the absolute lowest price possible and then just sell ultra cheap for a long time, like the Model T.

Dean is different than most business men, but I find it hard to believe that he would be willing to arbitrarily cut his profit margins down to such a slim level (@ 250$ it would be slim indeed). Unless Dean allows competitors to use his patents and create their own versions of the Segway (same as Phillips did with the compact disc player technology) I don't think we will see any reason for the Segway to drop to rock bottom prices anytime soon.

This isn't to say the price won't drop drastically, I'm just saying I personally feel it is unlikely they will ever be sold for less than a grand each (just my "shoot from the hip" estimate). However, I would absolutely love to be wrong! (hint hint Dean.... please prove me wrong! ;))

civan93
04-04-2003, 04:41 AM
I want to know where you got a 512k Mac AND a dot-matrix printer for $3000 in 1984. I seem to remember mine was closer to $8,000 for the combo. Oh, and I have my bet on $1000 Segway by 12/04. Law of manufacturing. It will get cheaper. There will be competition of some sort. But its just a hunch. That and $5000 will get you a Segway today.

lipinsky
04-04-2003, 09:06 AM
I agree completely with you PDANTIC. Every day I show C-level executive how they can build a supercomputing for hundreds of thousands of dollars which is bigger than a 12.3 Teraflop ASCI White machine which costs $110 million dollars.

It is basic econ 101, laws of supply and demand and the progression of technology. Just look at Moores Law.

You could wait for a price drop or the increase in function but you would miss out on using a Segway for that period. No when you purchase technology the price/performance ratio will be better tomorrow (in some cases literally).

I don't know about $250, but I do believe the sub $1,000 will be an important mental barrier -- it was for the personal computer.

statmed
04-04-2003, 10:22 AM
One of the things that keep the price of new items high is the cost of R&D (research and development). Usually after the R&D costs are recovered the price of a new item usually drops (ex. VCR's, DVD's, microwave overs, etc.)

The question here is with ten years of R&D costs, how long will it take for LLC to recover those costs. And when those costs are recovered, how much more in R&d costs will they have spent in improvements (better batteries, etc).

Price will probably drop some after R&D costs are recovered, the BIG question is HOW MUCH!!!



H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

muckle
04-04-2003, 12:11 PM
If they can get the price down to $2K, that would be a MAJOR accomplishment. The demand would be huge.

Of course, if they get it down to $1K, they really would change the way cities are designed. And all the quotes from Kemper's book would be true. IMHO, of course.

BenBethel
04-04-2003, 01:50 PM
Prices will drop very quickly... but several things must happen. Production must take place in Mexico or China. Batteries must get cheaper and lighter or power source must become fuel cells. Tires must get cheaper. Accessory sales must expand to the point where Segway is making more money by different types and colors of handlebars, fenders, wheels, and tires. And they're selling lights and gps and whatnot as options when you order the unit.

My predictions for pricing:

8/1/3 - sales increase 50%
$4,495 - i168(yeah, I know it's really the i167)
$3,495 - Metro

1/15/4 - sales increase 50%
$3,995 - i175
$2,995 - Metro

4/1/4 - sales increase 40%
$3,795 - i200
$2,795 - Metro

7/1/4 - sales increase 30%
$3,595 - i225
$2,595 - Metro

10/1/4 - sales increase 20%
$3,295 - i250
$2,295 - Metro

1/1/5 - sales increase 100%
$2,995 - i275
$1,995 - Metro

10/1/5 - sales increase 100%
$2,595 - i300
$1,595 - Metro

1/15/6 - sales increase 200%
$1,995 - i325
$995 - Metro

10/1/6 - sales increase 500%, prices hold steady
$1,295 - i350
$ 749 - Metro

www.benbethel.com