Fuel Cell Segway?

[emanresu]

Well, why not? If the size of the fuel cell can be molded to the requirements of a Seg, we could run the things on water, or small amounts of alchohol. Small devices such as cell phones have already been shown using this technology. It's ironic that people my age (147) have waited and waited for practical electric vehicles only to see the technology being totally eclipsed by hydrogen (the fuel cells true food). If I lived in the Mideast, I'd be taking some oil money and putting it aside for a rainy day. It may be a little early to get that camel breeding operation up and running, but I sure would be getting the supplies together.

[Deviant]

I'd love a quiet generator on the Segway, but fuel cells don't run on water. Energy is required to break the hydrogen out of the water, and if you have that, I'm not sure you need the fuel cell! A bit off-topic, but does anyone have the specs for the energy required to separate water vs. the energy given off by the resulting hydrogen? (i.e. like 10 watts to produce enough hydrogen to create 100 watts??)

[hodgepoj]

quote:Originally posted by Deviant

I'd love a quiet generator on the Segway, but fuel cells don't run on water. Energy is required to break the hydrogen out of the water, and if you have that, I'm not sure you need the fuel cell! A bit off-topic, but does anyone have the specs for the energy required to separate water vs. the energy given off by the resulting hydrogen? (i.e. like 10 watts to produce enough hydrogen to create 100 watts??)


Go to http://www.fuelcells.org/fctypes.htm#acid

hodgepoj

[BruceWright]

Deviant, if you're trying to get more power out of water than you put in, you're going to have a hard time explaining that one to Sir Isaac Newton!

Water is at a very low-energy state. It is one of the most stable compounds in the universe. There isn't energy released when you split the hydrogen and oxygen and make h2 and o2. The only energy you're going to get when you burn (and reunite with oxygen) that hydrogen gas, is the same energy you used to make it from water, less the energy lost in inefficiency.

There are better, cheaper ways to get hydrogen. Ways that harvest it from other chemical compounds found naturally. See hodgepoj's link for lots of those types.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Deviant]

Bruce, I wasn't trying to get more out than I put in. I was just miffed about all this fuel cell horse hockey. BTW, it is possible to get more out than in, but that would require a nuclear breakdown (consider it tapping potential energy).

Well, my research is showing less than 50% efficiency on separating water, and less than 80% in storing the hydrogen. So, as I stated in my first post, if you've got the onboard energy source to run fuel cells from water, then you don't need the fuel cell.

Fuel cells are seen as a panacea by many, but I just see them as an inefficient battery if you have to account for the energy required to produce its fuel. Yes, our coal and oil fuels also take lots of energy to process. I like my solar (photovoltaic) power. I'd love ultracapacitors to replace my lead-acid batteries. And when I can buy a home fuel cell that runs off my natural gas line, I'll get it.

Aside from all of that, my Segway gets most of its power stored into its chemical battery via solar energy - good enough for me for now.

[BruceWright]

Deviant, If you've gone and built me a cold fusion reactor for my Segway, don't wait until christmas to give it to me!

I don't think fuel-cells are horse-hockey, personally. Though I agree that Solar is certainly the ultimate renewable energy source.

Fuelcells can also be powered by biomass energy, which is like the biggest solar-collector on earth!

You call it an "inefficient battery". I would argue that it is actually THE MOST effecient battery for that energy, because it doesn't require you to carry around the spent medium of energy storage (thus wasting energy). CO2 and H20 blow away, rather than having to carry around 20 pounds of lithium-ion or whatever. Weight is very important in fuel-efficency. Carrying a spent battery is wasted efficiency.

Using biomass to fuel the vehicle results in a closed carbon-cycle, as all of the co2 produced is absorbed by the biomass being grown for the next cycle.

So I see fuel-cells as one-side of the economy question. They are the engine, or the battery. Where you get the power in the first place is the other side. Photovoltaic cells are one place, biomass is another, chemical mines or petrochemicals might be a third. Even if you use petrol for your energy, the fuel-cell will burn it the most cleanly and efficently that you can.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Peter iNova]

quote:Originally posted by Deviant

I'd love a quiet generator on the Segway, but fuel cells don't run on water. Energy is required to break the hydrogen out of the water, and if you have that, I'm not sure you need the fuel cell! A bit off-topic, but does anyone have the specs for the energy required to separate water vs. the energy given off by the resulting hydrogen? (i.e. like 10 watts to produce enough hydrogen to create 100 watts??)


It is less than 100% efficient. Consider the electron physics: You must punch an electron in to wedge the H2 from the O, then return that electron in a heat-producing reaction to turn it back to H20. Exact mirror reactions that have an exact mirror amount of energy. But the heat part is less than 100% efficient. So there goes the wattage.

I imagine a thing in my garage about the size and eventual cost of a major appliance that turns the solar power coming in from the roof into H2 in convenient recycled bottles for my car and future HTzi. The O2 would be released back into the air, causing anti-pollution.

If Dean isn't working on this, he ought to be.

-iNova

http://www.digitalsecrets.net/glidewalk/Home.html

[JosephM]

One word: Sterling

Dean won't go fule cell. He already has the sterling mapped out.

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/icon_segway_happy.gif FIRST Pit News Mag @ www.pitnews.org

[pdantic]

There seems to be some confusion. Most fuel cells at this time use methane (CH4 - natural gas is predominantly made up of methane) as their fuel, not hydrogen. To quote one article, "Fuel cells work by converting chemical energy to electrical energy, capitalizing on hydrogen and oxygen's strong propensity to bond and form water." You don't "break the hydrogen out of the water and then use it as a fuel".

For more info on how some researchers are trying to reduce the cost, read this article:
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-fuel-cells.html

Steve
www.pdantic.com

Automobiles:
"They contained the seeds of their own destruction. Eighty million steel juggernauts, operated by imperfect human beings at high speeds, are more destructive than war."
-- Robert Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll"

[pdantic]

quote:Originally posted by Joseph M

One word: Sterling
Dean won't go fule cell. He already has the sterling mapped out.


And to learn more about Stirling cycle engines, check out this site:

http://www.stirlingengine.com/

They have a picture of Dean Kamen and the owner of this company, and you can buy Stirling Engine kits from them. Cool.

Steve
www.pdantic.com

Automobiles:
"They contained the seeds of their own destruction. Eighty million steel juggernauts, operated by imperfect human beings at high speeds, are more destructive than war."
-- Robert Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll"