Will the "honor system" work?

[n/a]

quote:"We ... were told that the Segway is highly maneuverable and can operate at very low speeds," he said. "However, I think its top speed, rather than its lowest speed, is more relevant. I’m old enough to remember what hiking was like before mountain biking became popular. ... The honor system didn’t work with mountain bikers, and it won’t work with Segway riders."

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2003/January/29/local/stories/09local.htm

Here is another interesting quote from the artice:

quote:Segway’s year-long study will begin Saturday. A private research firm will conduct the study, Vallone said. While the device has logged 100,000 hours of testing, and is used by some businesses, it’s never been neighborhood tested.

If true, I wonder where the logged time took place.

U early adapters will ofcourse behave like true abmbassadors and do your best to demonstrate how safely and curteously Segway can be ridden. But what will happen when the general poplulations get their hands (feet) on them? How much havoc could a careless, inconsiderate, or drunk Segway rider cause? I think a fair discussion about the safety of Segway should address questions like this.

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence "Segway’s year-long study will begin Saturday. A private research firm will conduct the study, Vallone said. While the device has logged 100,000 hours of testing, and is used by some businesses, it’s never been neighborhood tested".

If true, I wonder where the logged time took place.

i don't think they'd state 100,000 hours without data backing that up, i'd guess that the data is available for folks who request it.

i also don't know if the "if it's true" thing is fair to imply, the folks at segway as far as i know have always been 100% truthful and all the data i've seen on site as well as from the staff has been accurate and thorough.

and at some point, when do i get to claim "it’s been neighborhood tested" i've gone over 200 miles in my neighborhood for over 60 days, kept careful logs and i do not work for segway, seems to me it's been tested by an independent person.

quote:Originally posted by LawrenceU early adapters will ofcourse behave like true abmbassadors and do your best to demonstrate how safely and curteously Segway can be ridden. But what will happen when the general poplulations get their hands (feet) on them? How much havoc could a careless, inconsiderate, or drunk Segway rider cause? I think a fair discussion about the safety of Segway should address questions like this.

a careless, inconsiderate or drunk person will create havoc in car, on a bike, on segway-- or even sitting at home using a computer. one thing is for sure, we'll see more deaths and injuries from these types of people in cars than anything else that moves people, but that doesn't mean we should ban cars or alcohol.

perhaps i have more faith in the general public and i'm not willing to assume everyone is mean drunk?

cheers,
pt


http://www.bookofseg.com

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by pt
and at some point, when do i get to claim "it’s been neighborhood tested" i've gone over 200 miles in my neighborhood for over 60 days, kept careful logs and i do not work for segway, seems to me it's been tested by an independent person.


Surveys of "avid" road cyclists have shown that their accident rate (mostly falls) is about once per 10,000 miles. Adult cyclists on college campuses (where there is a lot of improper bicycle operation going on) have an average accident rate (again mostly falls) about once per 2000 miles. Child cyclists average 1500 miles between incidents.

As you can see, you would need to travel a lot of miles to demonstrate with any statistical significance the relative safety of the Segway compared to, in this example, a bicycle. If 100 Segwayists travel 1000 miles each over a year, you'll start to get a more accurate picture of the safety of the Segway.

I've cycled somewhere around 50,000 miles in my life, and have had only a couple of falls and one collision with a pedestrian. I have never experienced a car-bike crash. I'd like to think my experience is representative of the cycling population, but I know that I do a lot more riding at night and in ugly weather than do most cyclists. Also, serious car-bike collisions are so rare that I would need to live several lifetimes of cycling to accurately represent the likelihood of each in my own experience.

-Steve Goodridge

[pt]

steve-

thanks for this, super-useful. i think i need to get 100 friends and go 1,000 miles now :-]

segway has said there have been 100,000 testing, disney as well as other businesses have used the ht around millions of people (that was our estimate based on park attendance) and i've used at ht for 60 days in a major city. i'm tempted to say that most people won't go as far or use their ht as much as i have, so it might take quite some time to go 1500 miles, i'll hit that in less than a year, but others may not. it might need to be a function of time.

hmm, i'm really sure i can predict what's going to happen. i guess all i can do is keep going to work.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[bicycledriver]

Our system of laws has always been based on the honor system, i.e. something is allowed unless there is a law passed against it, and the laws are usually not passed without real evidence of a credible problem. Most of the existing traffic laws are the result of trial-and-error and extrapolation from more recent developments in traffic science.

I have suggested that Segwayists be allowed to use both roadways and sidewalks, with the condition that communities take a wait-and-see position on sidewalk prohibitions in downtown areas. If Segwayists behave as recklessly as some cyclists do, and upset pedestrians, they will end up prohibited from some sidewalks. If many Segwayists operate on roadways in ways contrary to the vehicular rules of the road, they may end up prohibited from roadways as well. Unfortunately, in some places cyclists who operate properly on roadways according to vehiular rules are harassed by police and have to defend themselves in court against bogus charges of impeding traffic, which get dismissed or overturned when cyclists have proper legal representation because such laws do not generally apply to non-motorized vehicles. In these cases even the most honorable conduct cannot compensate for societal prejudice and other forms of ignorance.

-Steve Goodridge

[n/a]

quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lawrence "Segway’s year-long study will begin Saturday. A private research firm will conduct the study, Vallone said. While the device has logged 100,000 hours of testing, and is used by some businesses, it’s never been neighborhood tested".

If true, I wonder where the logged time took place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



i don't think they'd state 100,000 hours without data backing that up, i'd guess that the data is available for folks who request it.

I meant that if the reporter's claim about Segway being "neighborhood tested" was true. I dont doubt Segway LLC's statement. But the fact is that there have been statements coming from Segway that have been misleading. If u have been following the discussions on the main forums u should know this.

Why dont u do Segway another usefull service and ask Segway LLC for more detail about the 100,000 hours and post that info on your site pt? They are more likely to respond to u than to just anybody. It is odd that with all the safety debates about Segway they have not posted the date on their own site.

quote:a careless, inconsiderate or drunk person will create havoc in car, on a bike, on segway-- or even sitting at home using a computer. one thing is for sure, we'll see more deaths and injuries from these types of people in cars than anything else that moves people, but that doesn't mean we should ban cars or alcohol.

I have made those sorts of arguments many times defending Segway from the bashers who made TIQ their home. No need to preach to the semi-converted.
Your defensivness with regard to Segway is rather extreme pt. U risk losing your credibility if u dont attempt to address the difficult issues in a more "balanced" way.

quote:perhaps i have more faith in the general public and i'm not willing to assume everyone is mean drunk?

U imply I dont have faith in the general public and that I have stated that everyone is mean and drunk??? Save that rhetoric for the bashers at TIQ! The public includes a percentage of wreckless, rude,irresponsible, impulsive drunk, individuals. The general public is certainly not going to be as carefull as the handpicked ambassadors who have dined at Kamen's home. U pt are by no means an average Segway owner. What ever safety data u provide will only demonstrate what is ideally possible for someone who takes every precaution imaginable. As far as I am concerned u are the "ideal" Segway owner... almost too good to be true.

This comes from someone who has probably spent more time defending Segway against unfair criticizm than anybody on the discussion forums.

[pt]

gotcha-

points noted, i was in a hurry to post. i'll come back later and update.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence I meant that if the reporter's claim about Segway being "neighborhood tested" was true. I dont doubt Segway LLC's statement. But the fact is that there have been statements coming from Segway that have been misleading. If u have been following the discussions on the main forums u should know this.

hmm, nothing they told me has been misleading yet, but that said...i haven't paid attention to everything from everyone, everywhere.

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence Why dont u do Segway another usefull service and ask Segway LLC for more detail about the 100,000 hours and post that info on your site pt? They are more likely to respond to u than to just anybody. It is odd that with all the safety debates about Segway they have not posted the date on their own site.

i don't really know what to say to that, i don't work for segway and i don't have any relationship with them. i'd guess that they know about me, but they're not my pals or anything. i doubt they'd send me any safety data, but if i have the opportunity to get something like that, i most certainly will.

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence I have made those sorts of arguments many times defending Segway from the bashers who made TIQ their home. No need to preach to the semi-converted. Your defensivness with regard to Segway is rather extreme pt. U risk losing your credibility if u dont attempt to address the difficult issues in a more "balanced" way.

duly noted, i can only speak about my personal experiences which have been very positive, if that comes across any other way than that, it shouldn't. i don't work or for them, i think they're a great bunch of folks from my interactions with them, but while i like segway, apple, and other companies, they're just a company that makes something i find useful, that's about it.

i'll try to stress that more.

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence U imply I dont have faith in the general public and that I have stated that everyone is mean and drunk??? Save that rhetoric for the bashers at TIQ! The public includes a percentage of wreckless, rude,irresponsible, impulsive drunk, individuals. The general public is certainly not going to be as carefull as the handpicked ambassadors who have dined at Kamen's home. U pt are by no means an average Segway owner. What ever safety data u provide will only demonstrate what is ideally possible for someone who takes every precaution imaginable. As far as I am concerned u are the "ideal" Segway owner... almost too good to be true.

no i didn't mean to imply that. i don't think i'm special or handpicked (they picked my wife's essay, i'm just her husband). i also don't think i'm different than anyone else i've met with a segway ht.

i do appreciate the kind words though, i try to be safe in all areas of my life (never a car accident, speeding ticket, nothing)...so perhaps i'm just lucky too.

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence This comes from someone who has probably spent more time defending Segway against unfair criticizm than anybody on the discussion forums.

you've been a great voice in the communities and i always enjoy / look forward to your posts.

cheers,
pt


http://www.bookofseg.com

[2totango]

Are we talking about Safety or a new traveling device? If you take a really careful look at automobile accident statistics there is no way in this world you would allow them on the streets.

How about going on a little offense with these negativists. I'm serious, dammit. More lives are wrenched from us EVERY year by automobiles than were lost in the Civil War.

How about finding out first if people are responsible on these new contraptions. Or ask these city officials when they are going to pass a tax paying for the carnage on their streets caused by cars. There is no honest way they can allow this misery to continue if they are really that concerned about someone being pushed by a Segway HT.

Forgive the steam but I just recalled the walking group that is proposing "walking speed" as the limit for sidewalks. I emailed them asking why they haven't realized they will ban all joggers, runners and CHILDREN from the sidewalks. Who of you hasn't been run into by some kid running pell mell. At least those of you who are at least half my age.


We're being put in the impossible position of proving we won't beat our wives so they'll give us a marriage license.

[n/a]

quote:you've been a great voice in the communities and i always enjoy / look forward to your posts.

Thank u for that pt. I did until now have the impression that u did not approve of me posting critical comments and info about Segway. It is much appreciated that u make the above statement considering my probing questions regarding your motives for posting only positive comments about Segway and for wondering about how a private individual could be such a dedicated and competent ambassador for Segway. Like I said above u seemed almost too good to be true. I accept your statements that u are a private individual who shares his experiences and enthusiasm for Segway and that u have no business/profit motive for doing so. I will support your efforts without the scepticizm here and elsewhere. I hope that u can accept the fact that I will continue to raise questions and post data that may be unfavourable for Segway LLC as long as this site remains a discussion forum and does not turn into a fan club. I believe Segway LLC needs feedback as much as they need PR. Frank has made it clear that he wants this forum to remain a discussion forum. I will do my bit to keep it that way.

Keep up the excellent work!

Cheers!

[n/a]

quote:Are we talking about Safety or a new traveling device? If you take a really careful look at automobile accident statistics there is no way in this world you would allow them on the streets.

I agree completely 2totango. Segway is unfortunately in a position that it needs acceptance, unlike the automobile and other accepted forms of transportation. It is unfair, but that's life.

quote:How about going on a little offense with these negativists. I'm serious, dammit. More lives are wrenched from us EVERY year by automobiles than were lost in the Civil War.

Maybe Segway LLC will use info like what u mention in their promotion campaigns. But then they will risk the automobile industry turning hostile.

[emanresu]

Sorry, again I disagree- "Segway needs acceptance".. No, it just needs people to ride them. We've got people who would ban Saurkraut if they could. Certain hair colors. They would ban tropical winds, bright fall afternoons. Just don't let 'em. Segway really screwed up by not saying, ala John Madden, BOOM! There it is!, and putting them on the street fast. So now idealists and zealots smell a little blood. I wouldn't worry, they always get their just rewards...

[MrTechno]

quote:Originally posted by emanresu

Sorry, again I disagree- "Segway needs acceptance".. No, it just needs people to ride them. We've got people who would ban Saurkraut if they could. Certain hair colors. They would ban tropical winds, bright fall afternoons. Just don't let 'em. Segway really screwed up by not saying, ala John Madden, BOOM! There it is!, and putting them on the street fast.

YES! You are correct, sir! And the best defense is a good offense.