another ban - Sanibel, FL

[RAG1247]

what a shame!

http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=3872&z=3&p=




Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you [img=right]http://www.sonyguy.com/rageagle.jpg[/img=right]

[apollo]

On the other hand, this article did seem to be writtten with a pro-segway slant to it. Public opinion is starting to change fr the better across america. And the city council said they will "study the segway revisit the issue in 18 months." So, there's your lemonade from that lemon of an article. ;)

-----
- "The horse is here to stay, the automobile is only a fad." - President of Michigan Savings
Bank, advice to Horace Rackham (who later invested $5,000 in Ford and made $12.5 Million)
- "I think I may say without contradiction that when the Paris Exhibition closes, electric light will close with it, and no more will be heard of it." - Erasmus Wilson, Professor at Oxford University, 1878
- "It's a great invention but who would want to use it anyway?" - President Rutherford B. Hayes after a demonstration of Bell's telephone.
- "Diabolical device of the demon of darkness" - a Baltimore preacher in 1896 denouncing bicycles.

[Brooster]

Another one bites the dust ... three steps forward, one step back.

Brooster

[JasonHilton]

That video was sad, ignorant, and just goes to show you, there are allways people against progress.

It is completly wrong too. There is a Florida Statute designed specifically for the Segway that allows it, basically anywhere.
Statute 316.2068:
quote:316.2068 Electric personal assistive mobility devices; regulations.--

(1) An electric personal assistive mobility device, as defined in s. 316.003, may be operated:

(a) On a road or street where the posted speed limit is 25 miles per hour or less.

(b) On a marked bicycle path.

(c) On any street or road where bicycles are permitted.

(d) At an intersection, to cross a road or street even if the road or street has a posted speed limit of more than 25 miles per hour.

(e) On a sidewalk, if the person operating the device yields the right-of-way to pedestrians and gives an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian.

(2) A valid driver's license is not a prerequisite to operating an electric personal assistive mobility device.

(3) Electric personal assistive mobility devices need not be registered and insured in accordance with s. 320.02.

(4) A person who is under the age of 16 years may not operate, ride, or otherwise be propelled on an electric personal assistive mobility device unless the person wears a bicycle helmet that is properly fitted, that is fastened securely upon his or her head by a strap, and that meets the standards of the American National Standards Institute (ANSI Z Bicycle Helmet Standards), the standards of the Snell Memorial Foundation (1984 Standard for Protective Headgear for Use in Bicycling), or any other nationally recognized standards for bicycle helmets which are adopted by the department.

(5) A county or municipality may prohibit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any road, street, or bicycle path under its jurisdiction if the governing body of the county or municipality determines that such a prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.

(6) The Department of Transportation may prohibit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any road under its jurisdiction if it determines that such a prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.

Even if the city did ban it, they can only ban it from the roads, not the sidewalk.

and Statute 316.003 defines:

quote:(83) ELECTRIC PERSONAL ASSISTIVE MOBILITY DEVICE.--Any self-balancing, two-nontandem-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles as defined in this section.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by JasonHilton
Even if the city did ban it, they can only ban it from the roads, not the sidewalk.

The Florida law says they can ban it from streets. Florida law also defines sidewalks as "SIDEWALK.--That portion of a street between the curbline, or the lateral line, of a roadway and the adjacent property lines, intended for use by pedestrians." Since the sidewalk is a portion of a street, they can ban it.

JohnM
If riding 2 hours is fun, then riding 20 hours is 10 times more fun.
RUSA #235

[woodenapple]

I would think the polio survivor quoted in the article as having problems walking, would be allowed to glide regardless of the new ruling. Just put her disabled tag on the segway and dare them to stop her.

Rodney

May all your days be Segway days!

[Billy Kirkland]

This was the speech I gave at city council. We will not give up the fight for private citizens to use the Segways. We still can do our tours. I hope to start a safety study on the use on Sanibel. I have to walk slowly because they did allow me to do my tours. I feel very strong that that I will show how the Segway can fit in on our little Island. Any help or ideas would be great


My name is Billy Kirkland as far as I know I am the only Segway owner on Sanibel and I am also the local Segway dealer for Lee County. In the past few months there has been a lot of discussion on the use of Segways on Sanibel.
I have heard from both sides the pro and cons of Segways on Sanibel. I find it hard to believe at this time anyone in this room has more knowledge or experience on a Segway than I do. I have heard all the stories and have done my best to find the whole truth about them. I am not claiming that there have not been accidents of flaws associated with Segways, but what I have found is that the more I use the Segway and as more test and studies are done the pros far out weight cons.
Every day more government agencies, cities, counties, private companies, people with disabilities and people like myself are finding that the Segway is the best way for us to move about in crowded locations like airports, malls, schools, universities, side walks and shared use paths. When Chicago Police Department was looking for a more efficient way for its officers to patrol O’Hare International Airport and provide a secure environment, for the 200,000 people who move through the facility each day. What did they chose? Not bikes, golf carts, but the Segways. Did they just go out and buy them before they tried them out No. They tested them for nearly a year and then the city of Chicago bought 28 of them. We will never see 69 million people per year on Sanibel nor will our police department need 28 Segways, but we find it necessary to ban the Segways because some think they are UN safe and the shared use paths are to crowded. Take a moment and think how many times in the last year have you seen a Segway in use by private citizens on Sanibel? Once, twice maybe three times. Now think about all the times you have been in Fort Myers, Cape Coral, Naples or anywhere else in the State. I only once saw a couple Segways on Summerlin yet some are worried that some how there will suddenly be hundreds of them on Sanibel.
What I would like to do is try and help you find a safe and fair way to allow them on Sanibel. If the Segway is given fair chance and studies find them unsafe I will support their ban from Sanibel. But to ban them out right at this time I feel is not the right step. We can place some safety requirements on them that would address most concerns, we cannot please both sides on this issue so lets try and find a solution.

Safety
I have had my Segway for one and half years. I bought the Segway because I thought it would a perfect way to move about on the shared use paths on Sanibel. Where most of my trips are less than 3 miles at a time. I had heard all the hype about them and I really did not understand how they could do what they say. So I called the closest dealer, Riva Sports on the east coast and set up a demo. I found that I could operate the Segway pretty easily after a short demo and a few minutes practice, and I had to have one. What I found out was that with very little time I could control the Segway. Did I fall off in the first few days? Yes. But I quickly learned my limits. The results are that I can answer most all the questions that people ask every day about the Segway. I have not run in to any one or anything along the shared use paths. And I travel them daily.
I can go forward as slow as I like, or up to 12.5 miles per hour, turn on a dime, make quick and controlled stops, and pull off the shared use paths with out any problem. When I have to cross a street I can come to a complete stop, look both ways and then cross with no problems. This is so much more difficult on a bicycle. When I come to stop I don’t have to put my feet down because the Segway balances for me, all I have to do is lean forward and I cross the street.
I would welcome the chance to work on a safety study on the use of Segways on Sanibel, and help implement any changes if needed. If we ban Segway except for tours how will we know how their private use would affect us on a day-to-day basis? I have presented to the city attorney’s office some studies that other cities have done, which could be a model.
If this ordnance was to pass as it is today my question to you the City Council is:

1. Have you any knowledge of any safety test that has proven the Segway unsafe on Sanibel Shared Use Paths?


2. Do you have any knowledge of any accidents involving Segways on Sanibel?

3. Are any steps being taken to limit the number of other devices or people on the shared use paths? For instance, the number of bikes, rollerbladers, jogging strollers, runners, or walkers?


If your answer is no, then how can you say that Segways are unsafe and that the shared use paths are too crowded.

In closing I don’t think that the Segways are going to go away. We need to take a careful look at all of the new ways to move the growing number of people around, and not just on Sanibel. All the arguments you hear today have been said about the automobiles, planes, phones, computers, medical improvements and many other things that we use in our everyday life. The Segway is just the newest and most current mode of transportation. If the Segway is banned, it will only be a matter of time before the same issues are addressed with other forms of transportation.
Over-riding current Florida law in order to ban Segways is an excessive and over zealous measure. Let us see if we can create some appropriate regulations for safety on Sanibel’s “shared use paths.” Than you very much for your time and understanding on this matter.

Billy Kirkland
Sanibel resident 20 years

[Brooster]

Very nicely presented, Billy. Thanks for sharing that, and I'm happy that you're here with us.

Brooster

[Stan671]

Excellent speech, Billy!

Stan Dobrowski

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by Billy Kirkland

This was the speech I gave at city council. …

Billy, when did you make this speech--before or after their banning decision? If after, have you received any feedback?



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Billy Kirkland]

The talk that I keep on hearing is that no one can believe that they would ban them against private use and let us do the tours. The speech was before the ban on Segways. Sanibel is the perfect place for Segways. We have over 26 miles of pave paths to ride on. The cry is not that the Segway is unsafe but our shared use paths are to narrow. With an average of 6 to 8 feet I don’t see a problem. We will keep working on changing people minds. I hope to start a program to pick up trash along the paths when I return form vacation. I will find ways to get plenty of good exposure on Segways.

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by Billy Kirkland

The talk that I keep on hearing is that no one can believe that they would ban them against private use and let us do the tours. The speech was before the ban on Segways. Sanibel is the perfect place for Segways. We have over 26 miles of pave paths to ride on. The cry is not that the Segway is unsafe but our shared use paths are to narrow. With an average of 6 to 8 feet I don’t see a problem. We will keep working on changing people minds. I hope to start a program to pick up trash along the paths when I return form vacation. I will find ways to get plenty of good exposure on Segways.


If it somehow comes down to doing demonstrations for council/board members to help convince them that path-sharing will actually work and be safe, I might be able to drive down with my Segway and help out. Let me know.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[junio1r]

Seems like these types of bans are happening more often rather than less often. Has LLC backed away from supporting local efforts to prevent these?

[pam]

I don't think so, junio1r. I think we are more sensitive to them, but I don't think they're happening more often rather than less often. This is probably just part of a natural progression of acceptance on the community level. All those things take time to come up for review...

LLC originally worked at the state level to for acceptance. And I've known them to work at the town level. That said, how often have you heard of the manufacturers of the Razor scooter working for legislation at ANY level???

Pam

[terryp]

Here we are at 2-1/2+ years, with thousands of HTs being used every day on sidewalks around the country, and I don't believe there has been a single incident of one injuring an innocent bystander. You'd think a record like that would help city officials realize how safe they are.


Segway - What's holding you up?

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by terryp

Here we are at 2-1/2+ years, with thousands of HTs being used every day on sidewalks around the country, and I don't believe there has been a single incident of one injuring an innocent bystander. You'd think a record like that would help city officials realize how safe they are.
Oh?
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/111903_nw_segway.html
This occured after the SF sidewalk ban. The city officials go to do an 'I told you so.'

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[QuadSquad]

JohnM,
what terryp should have said was, there has been no substantive injury to any innocent bystander. According to the child's father her injuries were rather minor.

Something that might not have been true if she had been struck by some other means of conveyance, a bicycle perhaps.



quote:Originally posted by JohnM

quote:Originally posted by terryp

Here we are at 2-1/2+ years, with thousands of HTs being used every day on sidewalks around the country, and I don't believe there has been a single incident of one injuring an innocent bystander. You'd think a record like that would help city officials realize how safe they are.
Oh?
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/111903_nw_segway.html
This occured after the SF sidewalk ban. The city officials go to do an 'I told you so.'

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[Stan671]

Has there been any follow up to that story? They seemed to indicate it would be easy to find the guy. Was he found and was he charged with anything?

Stan Dobrowski

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by QuadSquad

what terryp should have said..... What terryp DID say stands. Terry believed there had been no injuries to bystanders. That belief is not well founded.
quote:
Something that might not have been true if she had been struck by some other means of conveyance, a bicycle perhaps. Good use of the Dean Kamen defense: When discussing Segway safety, change the subject to some other form of transportation, preferably bicycles. That dog won't hunt. There is no totally safe form of transportation, Segways included. Injuries have occurred to Segway gliders, along with one death. Accept that mishaps occur, learn what you can from the mistakes of others and then proceed with caution.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[QuadSquad]

Speaking of changing the subject.

Recognizing that anyone using the Segway or any other means of conveyance, including walking, must accept some risk, but I was, I thought, discussing the probability of substantive injury to innocent bystanders by that means of conveyance.

Unless you have any evidence to the contrary the Segway's remarkable record is unblemished and unchallenged.

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

quote:Originally posted by QuadSquad

what terryp should have said..... What terryp DID say stands. Terry believed there had been no injuries to bystanders. That belief is not well founded.
quote:
Something that might not have been true if she had been struck by some other means of conveyance, a bicycle perhaps. Good use of the Dean Kamen defense: When discussing Segway safety, change the subject to some other form of transportation, preferably bicycles. That dog won't hunt. There is no totally safe form of transportation, Segways included. Injuries have occurred to Segway gliders, along with one death. Accept that mishaps occur, learn what you can from the mistakes of others and then proceed with caution.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[adobephile]

This San Francisco incident was clearly a case of at least irresponsibility on the part of the rider, if not criminal neglect. Gliding too fast for conditions and then fleeing the scene are not machine flaws, but character flaws.

The rider did us all a disservice with his lack of due regard and his cowardice, but city and government officials in turn do us a greater disservice by citing such cases and generalizing them as justifications for instituting factually unwarranted and inappropriate restrictions to the free and responsible use of our Segways.

A society gets the government it deserves. Responsible people have to approach these officials and demand that our fundamental liberties not be gradually thwarted by these capricious and arbitrary restrictions made in the name of "protection."

"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Tarkus]

As stated above the rider did us all a disservice and the sad fact is as more Segs hit the streets, more of the "extreme" types will ride them.

I can't count the number of times I'm asked "how fast does it go". Not a good sign.

Good thing the HT costs 5K, it will keep the fools away for a while.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by Tarkus

As stated above the rider did us all a disservice and the sad fact is as more Segs hit the streets, more of the "extreme" types will ride them.

I can't count the number of times I'm asked "how fast does it go". Not a good sign.

Good thing the HT costs 5K, it will keep the fools away for a while.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html


Agreed.

Just today as I was Segway-pulling my grandson in his Radio Flyer wagon through a nearby city park, we passed by a skateboard ramps area where a bunch of teens were hanging out. I got some rude "Can I ride it?" and "How fast does it go?" cat calls.

It's a good thing, actually, that Segways cost so much, because it's totally unreal to these twerps that they could come up with that much scratch, and doubly unreal that they'd spend it on something that went so "slow." So we're relatively safe from at least this particular demographic.





"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com